Dr. John Robb - Vaccines and Veterinary Responsibilities


Neal: Hi. This is Neal from Growlies. I'm here with Dr. John Robb. Dr. Rob is, you may know from his internet fame where he's been fighting for the right for us to protect our pets from inappropriate use of vaccinations as well as some of the, what would say, large corporate interests affecting the veterinary advice that were being given. Today, I wanted to start out just by saying this is not an anti-vaccination talk. This is a talk about responsible vaccination. This is not an anti-vaxxer talk. In no way, is that what we're doing today.

I just want to make that clear to everybody from the get-go. I'm going to read something that I found on Dr. Robb's protectthepets.com website and it's the veterinarian's oath. I believe you have to say this oath much like a doctor would take the Hippocratic oath. When caring for humans, the vets say this as part of them becoming a veterinarian. Is that correct, Dr. Robb?

Dr. John: Yes. That's correct. Before we graduate or right at the time of graduation, we recite the oath.

Neal: Perfect. I'm going to read that oath then that oath is ultimately where the values that guide Dr. Robb are coming from as well as his own personal values and from those which he gets through his community. The veterinarian's oath and I'm going to read this so I'm not looking directly at the camera. I'm not well trained at this stuff.

The veterinarian's oath, being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use by scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of animal health and welfare. The prevention and relief of animal suffering, the conservation of animal resources, the promotion of Public Health and the advancement of medical knowledge, I will practice my profession conscientiously with dignity and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics. I accept as a lifelong obligation, the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence. That is the guiding principles that lead to this conversation.

Dr. John: Well stated.

Neal: I couldn't say it any better than you do, Dr. Robb. I want to say firstly, the first time I heard of you was, you were in front of a large board, a very official-looking and I'm not sure who the board was. I'm not sure if it was the state or federal board around and you were talking about responsible vaccinations and how the industry that guides the recommendations for veterinarians states that you have to give the same amount of vaccine and for instance, we can use a rabies vaccine to a Great Dane as you would to a seven-pound Chihuahua. Is that correct?

Dr. John: Well, what it says is that according to the law or rabies law that we must follow the manufacturer's recommendations. Since they've done those research in terms of the size of the pet and the volume, they just say give everybody one CC and with the science, as part of the oath, we'll get into that, we're supposed to keep up with the latest science which clearly shows when we do that we are over-vaccinating the small dogs and oftentimes putting them into anaphylactic shock.

Neal: Right, because these things we put into their immune systems, they do a lot. It's just not some innocuous. It's not an aspirin we're talking about here.

Dr. John: Exactly. Dr. Schultz probably stated the best. He said, "When you take a pharmaceutical drug, you affect your GI tract but when you have a vaccine that affects your immune system and your immune system affects every system in your body. This is much more serious than just an Aspirin or an Amoxicillin tablet.

Neal: What were you in that board? I recommend people go and look up doctor Dr. John Robb, do research. I believe it's actually on the protect the pet website. Am I correct?

Dr. John: Yes. I believe that was when I was in front of the public health department in the state of Connecticut a few years back giving testimony in support of amending the rabies law to allow veterinarians to one, choose the volume and secondly, to do the titer test, the blood test that shows circulating antibodies which is the only way to prove that the vaccine actually worked and produced immunity and then not to revaccinate a pet unless they've titer wanes because my whole thing here is, if they're already immune to rabies giving them another rabies vaccine has no medical benefit but in fact can potentially harm them and in some cases, actually they die.

To me, that's malpractice. I call this the current rabies laws, it's mandated malpractice so veterinarians are in bondage to this system but we're also the ones who should be knowledgeable and take the steps forward to change it.

Neal: You're fighting in that big Lobby. There's a large lobby from both the veterinary community where some of the chains might be fighting or lobbying to keep that going because ultimately they profit from giving the every three-year rabies shot rather than doing a less expensive titer.

Dr. John: Exactly. The thing of it is, you got PetSmart, Petco. Now, you got Walmart is getting into it too. You've got so many stores just going to promote. It's kind of like the CVS is, "I'm going to give you a free flu shot". It's just going nuts in and these are not necessary and they're actually deleterious. It is really a mess out there right now but the good news, believe or not just today, Neal, just today this is really important. This is like George Washington crossing the Delaware, so this is hot news for you. The AVMA, the American Veterinary Medical Association interviewed me. They're the ones that are not taking the steps that they should and they interviewed me not because they wanted to. In these many years that I've been beloved by pet owners because I'm standing up for the rights of their pets and the right to live and to get good veterinary care because of the pharmaceutical influence and the corporation influence in the veterinary schools on through the curriculum and in my association, they don't want anything to do with me and they just want to pretend I don't exist but the reason they've come to me now and said, "We want to talk to you on this".

They want me to answer the question. Why are people not vaccinating their pets? They had to ask the question because the pet owners are taking over you, the public. They are becoming educated and with that education, they're walking and they're saying, "No. I want to titer." This is really a big thing because it's going to be probably she said in the March Journal. This is the big American Veterinary Medical Association, so this has hit Main Street. I don't know what they're going to write. I gave a lot. We'll see what they actually put in there. Maybe, it's going to be one sentence and maybe it's not. We'll see but I believe the person who was interviewing me had little knowledge and walked out of there with their head spinning so it was a good interview. We're getting their deals is what I'm trying to say.

Neal: Every little step, right?

Dr. John: Every step.

Neal: The AVMA is actually asking to speak with you for an article in the journal. That's actually huge because it's organizations like them that wanted to silence you for so many years.

Dr. John: Yes. I was talking to the current president when he was a representative in Massachusetts before he became the AVMA president, doctor. I called him because they're going after my license and I said, "Hey, I need some support here. He said to me, "You're probably right. We're overdosing the little guys but the pharmaceutical companies have to do the research and nobody's making them so they're not going to so you're fighting a losing battle," and I'm sitting there wondering, "Well, but what about the AVMA?" Don't we veterinarians? Can't we say to the pharmaceutical companies that we want responsible studies done so that when we go in to use your products that we're not killing our patients? We can't make them do that because why? Because of the money train because that's funding so many things. Nobody wants to make waves. You know what I'm saying? But it's baloney that's why I did a recent Facebook live. We need new leadership in the AVMA. That's what we need.

Neal: We already know that you're at the BCVMA in my jurisdiction as well. We're governed by the BCVMA and they lay down some rules around the fresh pet foods that don't make sense. They make rules around the regular use of vaccines without titers. We're in the same boat. Even here in Canada, it's not just an American issue.

Dr. John: Absolutely. It's a worldwide movement. It's a worldwide movement. I've been involved with people and many countries trying to help their course as best as I can. Now I have my own hospital, again, so I'm working six days a week and don't have the time I had, but, this movement really, if I dropped out it's already one because it's going to go on its own because it's not about me it's about the truth. Once the truth is well-known, then it just keeps going like a fire. That's what's happening. That's why we are going to win and this whole thing is coming down.

This is how standards of care change in any industry with the new standards and then the old have to go. People get dug in especially when there’s a lot of income coming out of the old standard.

Neal: For the most part we’re talking about the three big vaccinations. We're talking about rabies, parvo and-

Dr. John: Distemper

Neal: -distemper. Thank you very much.

Dr. John: To be honest with you, those are the only three that I vaccinate against or believe in vaccinating against. I say believe because they’ve taken my ability to give a rabies shot. I don't want to say I gave the rabies shot, because then the next thing they'll pull me from the board again. Having said that, yes, these are serious diseases that are well documented and cause issues and would cause issues if we didn't vaccinate against them. They're serious. Obviously, rabies is a public health concern. People can die from it. Your pets can die from it. Your pets can give it to people. We definitely did vaccinate against it. Distemper and parvo over the years have taken many lives. That's where I stopped right there.

These other vaccines I call them fluff. They have very little immunity. If any, they cause issues, they shouldn't be given. Those three, I believe in vaccinating. Again, smallest volume, lowest number of vaccines to produce immunity measured by titer and then titer year by year to make sure that pet continues to hold immunity. By the way, any pet that I've ever tittered, that's been immune to those things, I've never had one become unimmuned yet. Eventually, it won't be over you. I suggest in Canada you guys have been vaccinated against mumps, measles, and rubella. Certainly, we have and we will go and get a shot every three years without even thinking about it because we assume we're immune and we are.

If you want to get a job in a hospital, they don't even ask for your vaccine information. Here in the US, they ask for a titer to be done. If your guts circulating antibodies then you start work. It's the same science and it should be the same for these. We're going to break through and get there.

Neal: [inaudible 00:12:45] I don't know if it's true of all the jurisdictions. A titer seemed to be two or three times the cost of the vaccination.

Dr. John: Well, that's simply because they haven't made it affordable. That's all I can tell you. I know in Canada it's a big problem because we do a lot of titers for Canadians. It’s been good because we've given them because I'm hearing $600 to do.

Neal: Yes, I've seen 500.

Dr. John: Yes. The key thing in the US is you've got these middlemen, I call them IDES, the Intech. These are 90% of the laboratory use. They don't do the rabies titer. They forward it to Kansas, but they earn $100. They are a $100 just simply to take this serum to put it in another box and send it to Kansas State because that's usually double the cost. It's a 200 and nobody has done anything yet. Kansas State does offer affordable titer. Vets can join Kansas State in the US and their charges will be $32 for distemper, parvo and about the same for rabies. That's their cost. They could be doing titers for under 100 bucks. That's what I'm doing in the movement. I started doing it at a cost just because it was ridiculous. Now I make $20. I just add 20 bucks.

It's pushing the movement, because you see people are walking in and say listen, “I want you to draw the blood for me and just give me the serum because you want $500 and Dr. Robb will do it from 80 bucks. Charge me 30 bucks. Give me the serum.” Then I'll send him a UPS label in the submission form and we get the titers done. I would be happy to give up that income and work. That's if you really want to help people or just join Kansas State do it. It's online. You submit your information, boom, boom, email, UPS and submission form and out it goes to the next UPS carrier. It's so simple and then you can make it affordable.

It's not being made affordable, because a lot of them they don't want to do titers, because they're going to walk in one room and say, “Okay, your pet doesn’t need the vaccines.” They're going to walk in the other room and give shots without checking the titer. Then it becomes so obvious. Then when somebody dies, “Why didn't you check the titer on that one?”

Neal: There are some of the risks of vaccine. What I see in my store, and just to give you a little background of my store where we consider ourselves a health food store. We don’t sell any kibble at all. We feel that it’s a broken form of feeding. It does no longer make sense. Personally, I stopped taking nutrition advice from Nestle 25 years ago. I think a dog should stop taking advice from Nestle and Mars bar or chocolate bar companies or candy companies, because that’s ultimately who dominates that space.

Dr. John: That’s true.

Neal: That's who we are. That's why we see a lot of animals who come in and they've tried everything under the sun. I see a lot of people who come in who have super inflamed dogs. The two questions I ask are, “Did you have a flea treatment recently because that's a side effect of flea treatment? Then, "Did you have a vaccine recently because that's a potential side effect of vaccination?" Do you agree with that approach?

Dr. John: Yes. Look, here's what I said. What's interesting about me and I don't quite understand it is that I came out of the pharmaceutical industry. I was indoctrinated. I went through vet school. This is what you use, but I could clearly see with the vaccines the issues, and so I went against it. As I became known, then a lot of holistic veterinarians joined the movement. I've been learning from them more about more natural treatments and about the foods, raw feeding and some of the freeze-dried where you add the meat and this kind of stuff. Like you said moving away from the kibbles and things. I've learned a lot because of the veterinarians that have surrounded me that are mostly holistic. There was just something maybe you saw. You probably saw the news where Blue Buffalo, somebody issuing them. Their pets got diabetes.

Of course, we know that a lot of these kibbles, you read the ingredients. They're 65%, what's the other is 35% sugar. It's not even listed and it doesn’t have to be listed. Obviously, that’s going to cause issues because it's cheap and then they fill those foods with it. I think there’s a lady in Canada as well you might know her, Monica Segal. Are you familiar with Monica?

Neal: Yes, I know her.

Dr.John: I believe she's a Canadian and she's on Facebook. I think it's called Country Kitchen. She’s got a four-year degree in dog nutrition. I had a couple of lengthy conversations with her. She would agree. She would say it like this, “There may be some instances where some kibbles are acceptable.” She would also say raw feeding is not for every dog. I think just the kibble industry is obviously a big problem because it lines its shelves and everybody thinks dogs have to eat that or they're not healthy. Of course, we know that's not true. I'm not an expert in that area. I'm learning. Certainly, when people come into me, there's a big discussion about alternative feeding.

Neal: I think that you at one point ran a Banfield hospital and then you later had problems with the VCA franchise that you own. Both of those now I believe are owned by Mars.

Dr. John: Correct.

Neal: You ran Banfield before Mars purchased..

Dr. John: Yes. Well, what happened was I bought my franchise right about the same time that they bought Banfield in 2008. It takes a little time for them to so-and-so left the practice. And then everything starts changing. It was an incredible experience in the sense that I saw it go from one owner who-- even though he maybe have been heavy on vaccines, he gave pretty much autonomy to what we call the franchise owners. In other words, there were about 900 hospitals. About 200 were franchised as I owned one. As long as the income was good and there were no complaints, he let us do our thing because when you have an interest in it, you're going to do a little more. When Mars bought, they didn't want franchises. They did franchise and they play hardball. That's saying it nicely. They basically threatened the franchisees that they would go after their licenses because they control the medical records. Within five years, they were all gone. Many people had 15, 20 years. Some had been there 20 years and had really built up these hospitals and they had to take pennies on the dollar and run. Because I didn't do that, I told them to get out and that's why we're talking right now because I didn't just get up and run. I said they were wrong and I was right and I still am.

This may sound bold to you, Neal, but I think they're coming down. I think we're going to kick these people out of entering medicine because they are only interested in profits. I know it and as people get educated this, they're not going to put up with it. They don't want to go into places where the recommendations are based on them making money at your pet expense. Nobody wants that. They have their foundation. You know how it is Neal. They have their foundations that look good and they're-- But all these things are just cover up for the fact that they sit there and push products that aren't good for pets. They have quotas that people-- In Banfield now the technicians get a gift certificate if they sign up so many people on the planet. What is this?

This is supposed to be a hospital in medicine and they're given gift certificates to push people to sign them up on their plans. That's not medicine. These coupons, it's crazy stuff. We're talking about medicine here. We're not talking about some sale on a coat. Yes, they went after us and ultimately they knocked us all off.

Neal: They ended up arresting you.

Dr. John: They ended up arresting me. Psycho, they sent police to my house. I could go on and on. They just unloaded thinking, "Well, this will stop him and this will stop him and this will stop him," but you know what? It ain't stopping me because I've taken their best shots, and I'm still standing. Now it's time for me to take my best shot. We're doing that now while you and I are talking.

Neal: That led you ultimately to the fight that you're having now. We see this here in my area, all of our clinics and I'm exaggerating when I say all, many of our clinics have been purchased by a VCA, which is a Mars Corporation. We had never heard them before. They don't run under the veterinary clinics of America. They run under VCA. and so because we're Canadian, they're trying to not show that it's an American big organization. I think is what it is. It's a marketing term.

I think that people don't understand the difference between walking into a clinic that's owned by the vet, and when he makes a mistake, the VCMA can say to him, "Your whole clinic is at risk," as opposed to where the corporation comes in, they own the organization, the vet is an employee and if you chastise the vet, they just replace him with another one and continue down their merry way. Why are the veterinary medical associations essentially castrating themselves?

Dr. John: Well, unfortunately, Neal, the love of money is the thing. These people, they're walking in with billions and billions, and they're sponsoring things and they're paying for things. Oftentimes here in the US, you see a guy who's a dean of a veterinary school retire and next thing is on the board of Mars. Well, there was a relationship already there. That's the corruption that we talked about and that's what it's really about. It's selling out at many levels. You're absolutely right. I've had several Canadians fly or drive to my house, to be an expert witness because of issues they've had at a VCA hospital because there are a few veterinarians who would stand up and defend people who've had these issues in these hospitals. The thing is that and DCA it's in flux now because now this what I'm saying I saw what happened at my place, meaning when they took over, and people started leaving and the rules started changing and the quotas started coming and all this type stuff. The same thing is happening with NVCI. It's funny, I go to a meeting and I talk to somebody, "My manager VCI." How long have you been there? Well, how's it going with Mars? Well, things haven't changed too much yet but it's happening because ultimately, they're interested in one thing and one thing only profits. That's it.

Neal: Well, that's a big worldwide Corporation. Their only responsibility is a fiduciary one of the shareholder.

Dr. John: First of all, I don't think corporations should be allowed to own veterinary hospitals.

Neal: I agree.

Dr. John: I think veterinarians should own veterinary hospitals. I think like you said because just what you stated it so well they're responsible to fiduciary profits. That's not a formula you want when you're dealing with sick animals. I think it's up to the people, the Canadians, the French people, the English people, the American people. We're all pet lovers and we have to stand up and we have to demand change. We pay for all these things. When we unite that's when we win. That's what this movement has been about and it's working. People are uniting. They're educating each other, and then they're going in. What has to happen next, see, my vision is to set up protect the pets, hospitals.

Now, veterinary students graduating from school, have a place to go where they can be free from all those things that they really don't want to do but if they don't have any choice, then they do it. Veterinarians have to have a place knowing that pet owners have to have a choice. If they know the difference, then they'll choose the right but we have to give them that. There's a lot of layers to this and it's going to happen in the timeframe that it happens. There's a big vision going on here.

Neal: There really are a lot of layers because we started out and you're saying how you were being interviewed by the AVMA recently and that that was a real milestone. I think that when you're talking about why people aren't taking some of the advice they're getting from vets now, the profession has a real trust issue right now.

Dr. John: Absolutely. It's funny because three years ago, I read my journals and the AVMA president says to the AVMA constituents, the veterinarians, "Why do you think we've lost our luster? We're veterinarians so once best. They've got to be good because they love animals. The cross-sales salesman was the bad guy. He was a lawyer. Now we've lowered quite a few notches. He was asked, "Why do you think this is because we're aware that it's happening?" He said, "Write me." Well, I took his email address, his phone number, I put it on the Facebook and said, "People, this guy wants to know why you don't care about veterinarians anymore in terms of their stature." That's who he should be asking not the veterinarians because we're the ones that are sold out doing the thing.

He got blasted, you know what I'm saying? He got so many responses but was he really interested in the answer? You know what I'm saying? You can ask the question, but if you don't ask the question-- If you've got a friend who knows nothing about a subject and you go to him to ask him the answer, then you don't really want the answer. You go to the people and ask them, they'll give you the answer and it's because of issues like over-vaccination. I think that's the biggest one. That's why I really head on because this is mandated and in England, it's mandated. They get the lepto vaccine, and that's killing pets right and left. Then 15% of the income at most veterinary hospitals right off the bat is vaccines and it's easy money. It's a big problem.

The real problem here is, the income at my hospital is 0.5% from vaccine, and that's the appropriate amount. 15% is 15% over the top because I am vaccinating puppies and cats, kittens against these diseases appropriately and then titering. My titer income is 5%. Their titer income is 0.1%. You see. That's the flux we're in and it's going up. The titers are going up. Kansas State is doing more and more so we are getting there. That's the thing I keep telling people like you said, "Take a step." We make breakthrough in a state this year, and actually this month in the United States where the tighter will be accepted in lieu vaccination. I've kept it a little quiet because we breakthrough in this state and we've already made it through the house. The Senate vote is looming. We breakthrough here. You're going to see this whole facade come down because then it's going to be common knowledge titer equals immunity. Why are we doing this?

Neal: Perfect.

Dr. John: It's so simple. That is mind-blowing, that they've been able to keep this the way it is for so long really. When all veterinarians titer themselves and would never give a vaccine. When I was being attacked by Mars, and they were taking my hospital, I was countersuing them. I'm in federal court, they hired Dr. Wellborn, who at the time, was the president of AHA, the American, Hospital Association, and also the head of the vaccine Task Force. They paid him, I don't know, 15,000 to come in for three days and tell him that I was going to cause rabies to take over the world. I asked him a question. You got to understand, I said, "Dr. Wellborn, you give yourself a rabies shot every three years to protect?" "No, I don't do that." "Why?" "Because I don't want to get sick." "You don't want to get sick, but you go in the exam room." I said, "What do you do for yourself because I check a titer. If your titer's good, you know, you're okay, right? Yes. You go in the exam room and shot the animals up every three years. He goes, "It's a law." You're in a position to change the law. Why aren't you doing something? What about your oath? What about your oath when you're doing harm to pet because there's a bad law, but you're going to do it. Your oath. If somebody passes a bad law, then you give up your oath and you kill your patients." Then the judge said, "I got it, Dr. Robb. I got it." He knows. Don't be a map anymore. That's the deal. It's simple, really.

Neal: Let me ask you your opinion just because I've listened to a bunch of your stuff and I really love the way you attack a subject. What do you think about big pet food and veterinarians and the way that they work together now? Because when I opened my store, everybody told me I had to sell kibble or I wouldn't be successful. I suspect that every time a young veterinarian comes out of the university, and they're ready to gung ho to do their own thing, they're told that they can't start their practice without selling kibble.

Dr. John: Well, in most hospitals, you walk in and the displays are right there in the reception area. There's more displays of kibble than there are chairs in the reception area and all the companies are glad to give them the shells free to put it up there. You're absolutely right. Let's face it. These companies are giving freebies to the students. They hook them in vet school, and then when they get out-- Now, I will say this, there is a place for some prescription diets. I believe that but just like the vaccines, it's overdone.

There's not a prescription food for every disease mortality. Then when you get somebody like Mars who owns up, and they're more interested in profits, they're not going to be doing the right research and using the best products to produce those diets. They're going to look to cut costs, and do as little research and just promote the heck out of it with marketing that it's the best thing in the world. You're absolutely right. Dogs' foods do not belong. It'd be like if you go to a human hospital and you walk in and they're selling all these foods. How does that belong in a hospital? It doesn't so I agree with you.

Dr. John: Go ahead.

Neal: Not really foods. I mean that because they have 50 ingredients. Generally, I would consider that either convenience food or fast food but not healthy food.

Dr. John: That's basically one of the things you're up against when you just said that because people want. The world is in such a rush. They want to take a scoop, throw it in the dish and get out the door and that's why they get away with it. I'm sure it's very similar to your store that's in Newtown, Connecticut. It's called your healthy pet. I said, "Listen, do yourself a favor when the puppy kicks. Go over there." When I have my open house, if you were next door to me, Neal, I would have had you in to have a table there and to teach people about nutrition. You see what I'm saying?

You're right. I've been indoctrinated and I'm slowly coming out of it. I have concentrated more on medicine. I see sick animals all day. That's what I do. Cancer in the abdomen, surgeries, ruptured ligaments. Just vomiting and diarrhea in summer food-related of course especially treats-- The worst plant here is, I forget the name of it, but they come in with pancreatitis. Did he get this treat? Yes. There you go. They're just feeding them bacon and they end up sick, the bully sticks. You probably heard of those but anyway-- You're absolutely right.

In nutrition, because again, the schools are indoctrinated, so they're not going to listen to you and they're not going to teach what you know and so that means that you have to leave. Unfortunately, you have to lead and, and so I send people your way. I agree with you.

Neal: What I changed my mind about kibble was a fact that Rodney Habib actually brought to me was the dogs die of cancer more than every other mammal on the planet.

Dr. John: See, like cancer.

Neal: He has the study to show that that as reliable effect as we can have today. I'm thinking, Well, what do we all do with our dogs? Well, 98% of us feed them kibble.

Dr. John: You're right.

Neal: That's minimum 60% carbohydrate for it to be in a cookie form and I think they're not really carbohydrate eaters. They don't have a lot of amylase as a digestive enzyme. That's what we had a sick dog. That's what started us was that whole process and I came out of a software background. I'm a step by step thinker and so that's how I came to that conclusion and that's why we don't sell it because ultimately we just think it's broken now. It might be a bit better in the past but it's not now.

My one retorted bump against the prescribable one, the ingredients just I would always-- For instance, in my store today, I had a person who has a dog who's nearing the end of life. They just want to keep it happy and eating is refusing food, which means that he's at that point where you if you can't get food into them, you know the end of life is coming. I wouldn't recommend raw for that dog. I would never recommend raw but I would never recommend kibble either. We have a cook food a grain-free cook food that's a fantastic and it sense-- It offers more. When with those prescribable one diets what's the prescription in the diet? There's no ingredients that are medical in nature. They're the same ingredient deck, for the most part, except for potentially cellulose as the regular kibble.

The only thing I would ask is, "Okay. I'll consider your prescription diet. What's the prescribable ingredient that I'm giving?'" If we don't have one, then I will go back to fresh foods because fresh foods make more sense to me.

Dr. John: I agree. Home cooking is a big thing too. If people will take the time to put together the proper diet. When they come into me, I give them all their options. There's some foods you probably heard of some of them. I think one's country kitchen. No, not country kitchen.

Neal: There's an explosion.

Dr. John: What's that?

Neal: There's an explosion because of the interest and especially with younger people now. They're really driving this for my store. I can see it's the people between 20 and 35 who are driving this change? It is not people in my age and their 50s to 70s. That is not those people. It is the people-

Dr. John: You're right. Dr. Harvey's. Have you heard of that one Dr. Harvey's?

Neal: No.

Dr. John: He's a doctor. He's been doing it since 1982. There you go. One of the challenges is to get the prices down a little bit on some of these diets. I'll just be honest with you, I pull out one of his bags, and it's 16 pounds for $70. I got 100 pound Malamute in the room and it ain't happening. You know what I mean? That's one of the challenges.

Neal: That's where I would say there's still room for fresh food, but maybe you just can't economically afford to feed only fresh food. There's some fresh food will lower those indicators of inflammation than none.

Dr. John: I like that. I like what you're saying and even just gave me a little bit more information to share with my clients in terms of you don't have to feed all this but get a percentage in there and that helps. Good point, Neal. Very good point.

Neal: You don't want that, thank you. Because I honestly, I've been watching your stuff for, I don't know, three or five years, somewhere in there since you came on my radar. I got to say you're doing great work, Dr. Robb. Because I'm in Canada, I'm quite remote from you, how can my audience with small or big as it is, we don't have a big audience. You know what? We have an audience and we have a community that we serve, and how can they help you in your fight for responsible vaccination?

Dr. John: Right. Well, like you said, every step counts. Of course, small communities with the worldwide web are not disconnected anymore and that's the key. I purposely try to stay on the vaccine topic just because there are a lot of great bets again from your neck of the woods, Dr. Karen Becker.

Neal: She's one of our favorites.

Dr. John: She touches every subject and that's good but I purposely have stayed with this one subject until it's done, you know what I mean? The way they can do that is just by talking to other pet owners and when they go to their veterinary hospital, they should say to their veterinarian, I would like to get a titer for my dog. I would like to know if my dog has immunity before we vaccinate it again. That's what I'd like to do. If you can't give me a reasonable price, I would like you to draw the blood and I'll send it to Doctor Robb so there you go.

Like I said, I think I've probably done 700 or 800 titers for Canadians in the last five years. That's a lot, three or four weeks and they have to do a little extra because they've got to use Canada Post or another method to send it. Again, you don't have to refrigerate this serum descendant. That's another thing. It can last up to six months. It's heat stable. Okay. This idea, you've got to pack it with ice and you've got to get it there overnight. It's not true. I've done both methods and had the titer be the same.

I've taken samples and held them outside for six months and ran it again and had the same titer. I'm not speaking from just thinking about it, I'm speaking from experience and so there's a lot of things that we can do, but that's what I would say. Titer test your dog and then don't vaccinate if it's got immunity. It's pretty simple, but they've got to teach other pet owners about it and all the science is on my website. If they go there, I've really researched it and put a lot of articles up there that are make very strong conclusions and you can bring that to your veterinarian and say, here's the science that they won't read it then that tells you you got an issue there because they're not open-minded. Then you get the fear tactics. You see a lot of that.

Neal: Well, the shame sales where they shame you.

Dr. John: That's right.

Neal: It's amazing but that sales tactic is ever taken in a medical organization.

Dr. John: It's a real shame. Pet owners are literally predators rise by in those situations. It's really very sad. I have a lady who just drove from Massachusetts to me. She's about three hours from my practice because she's got a 15-year-old dog who needs a medical workup, but no one will see her unless she gives that dog a rabies shot. She's in her early 70s and she's driving three hours to get to me. It's ridiculous. The dog, when we did the medical workup, it's got kidney issues. It's got inflammation in his body. There's problems and you can't give that dog a rabies shot, but she can't find anybody, any vet that will do it because they're saying to her, you would expose my staff to rabies. What are you talking about? This a 16-year-old dog that doesn't even hit this street and it's already had five rabies shots. What are you talking about [crosstalk]

Neal: And it stays symptomatic.

Dr. John: It stays symptomatic, yes. She's this old lady at 72 is exposing his staff to rabies. This is crazy stuff that we're saying to these people and it's horrendous. It really is.

Neal: On your website, that's one of the points I want to make and you actually did make it, because you have tons of fantastic resources. You have a letter's already prewritten for the vet to have to write up and say, these are the negative consequences of one of the vaccines I gave so that they can do the reporting that needs to be done. That's probably not appropriately being done now. That you have all great information there with the pet owner as well as for the vet.

Dr. John: That information is, I've done a lot of that, but I've had a lot of help from other people. This is a combined effort. That website was created two individuals, Carrie Morganson and Patty Coin really worked hard, countless hours, no pay to help. Okay, how do we get more people to report reactions? How do we petition veterinarians? They've come up with all these things that are easy for people to use. We've done a lot of the work that people could just go there and find their niche and do something about it. You're right, there's a lot of resources. If they would go to that website, we're still updating it. We're going to stay in this till we get it done and you're seeing a new standard come out of it and of course with the food too, it's time to turn back the clock and get back to sensible feeding as well as appropriate vaccination. I would agree with you on that.

Neal: Well, thank you very much for your time, Doctor Robb. It's been fantastic and one of the ones I'd recommend you check out is Doctor Ian Billinghurst pointing the bone of cancer. He's a veterinarian from Australia. He's considered one of the fathers of fresh feeding and he wrote a book back in the 80s about it and that started a lot of the people on the journey to finding fresh feeding, fresh foods for [inaudible 00:45:41] He's pointing the bone of cancer. He actually quit the veterinary practice for a long time so that he could focus on this book and it's about mammals. It's not just about dogs and cats. He goes through the whole history of cancer to where we are today to what the actual-- because he believes it's primarily a dietary disease.

Dr. John: I have to agree with you. It's funny that same when Rodney had been put together that very powerful video when I was testifying. There was a doctor there in the human field that testified in front of the public health. He said, "the problem in the United States is that people now are so sold that they just want to go to the doctor and they want to get a pill for everything, but they're not eating properly and they're not exercising properly." It's really a sad state affair. It's actually exactly what you're talking about. He was making the same argument in terms of the human market that people need to be led correctly to eat appropriately as a big part of the health. Of course, it's obvious, right? You are what you eat.

Neal: Yes, exactly. It's the fuel.

Dr. John: It's the fuel. Yes.

Neal: If you run a gas car it's not going to run or it might, but not for long

Dr. John: People suffer tremendously because I tell you one thing that I don't like it when I'm sick, you know what I mean? All the wheels stop. It's a terrible situation. I want to do everything I can to stay healthy. I have a wonderful Polish wife who makes me great food, fresh food.

Neal: You're a lucky man.

Dr. John: I really am. I'm a blessed man. Then I chop wood, so I heat my house here in Connecticut with wood, but I have a wood furnace in the yard. I'm out there every weekend, but I just use a chainsaw and then I split. I don't have the splitter but I just split and it's hard work. You know what, I heat my house and I keep in shape and It's going to keep me on this earth for a little while longer.

Neal: Well, and the dogs helped keep me healthy. Every day I have to get out because the dogs have to get out.

Dr. John: They got to get a walk, absolutely.

Neal: I'm healthier for having them.

Dr. John: It's pretty cold up there in Canada, right?

Neal: Well, I'm actually the most mild climate of Canada in Victoria, British Columbia. We're on Vancouver Island in the Pacific. I actually don't have winter, but we get rain, we get rain.

Dr. John: Califonia, yes.

Neal: We're the California of Canada but we're considered a temperate rain forest. I get three to four months of rain and then we have lovely weather. Then we go back to three to four months of rain. If we get winter and we don't every year, we'll have it for two weeks or three weeks.

Dr. John: Wow. That sounds pretty good.

Neal: It's also bad. If you ever up to the Northwest, plan a 90-minute ferry ride from Seattle and come and visit me.

Dr. John: I might take you up on that one, Neal. Once things calm down a little bit.

Neal: Well, it never will calm down the world keeps turning.

Dr. John: That's true.

Neal: When you find some time for yourself Doctor Robb, I'd love to meet you. Hopefully, I'll meet you at one of these conferences or one of these things that we go to occasionally. I just want to thank you so much for your time today and I just want to let people know, go to protectthepets.com, Doctor Robb's website is exceptional and there's lots of resources there for both you and your vet to learn more about responsible vaccination.

Dr. John: Thank you, Neal. It's been wonderful having you on your show and obviously go see Neal. He'll teach you how to feed your pets. How's that?

Neal: Perfect. Have a good day, sir.

Dr. John: You too, Neal.